The case for DEI in 2025: How today’s leaders can build inclusive workplaces

La’Kita Williams [00:00:00]:
If we look at diversity, equity and inclusion and understand it’s not a single training, it’s not a single intervention that we’re actually looking at, how is this system process operating? And then how do we make it inclusive for everyone? It’s important that we follow the same processes that we do when we’re vetting any vendor, when we’re bringing anyone in as partners, be in partnership and communication with them so that when we’re bringing an intervention to our organization, we’re making sure that it’s gonna be something that is in alignment.

Hannah Beaver [00:00:35]:
You’re listening to How to Make a Leader, a leadership development podcast from Big Think+ where we take the biggest ideas from the best minds in learning and development and distill them into actionable insights. I’m your host, Hannah Beaver. For this episode, we’re doing Something a Little different will be featuring a live panel discussion which took place with an audience a couple weeks ago. We welcomed three incredible experts with a combined 28 years of experience in inclusion, belonging and workplace culture initiatives. The planning for the event was months in the making, and to say that the DEI landscape shifted significantly between the time of our first planning call and the live event is an understatement. In the United States specifically, we’re witnessing shifts in policies and societal conversations since the change in administration that took place in January. These changes are unfolding in real time, leaving many working in DEI, HR, L&D and beyond grappling with feelings of uncertainty, unease and anxiety. I want to take a minute to acknowledge that if you’re feeling this way, you are not alone.

Hannah Beaver [00:01:49]:
If you’re listening to this episode, I suspect that you may be seeking guidance, whether it’s to learn how to approach critical conversations, navigate strategy, or determine next steps for DEI initiatives at your organization. Whether you’re tuning in from the perspective of an individual, a team member, or as a leader, I’m confident that the conversation that is to follow will provide you some actionable insights and meaningful takeaways to move forward. And with that, I’m delighted and honored to introduce our guests. First, we welcome our moderator, Chloé Valdary. Chloé is an educator and the Founder of Theory of Enchantment, on a mission to address the shortcomings of traditional DEI approaches and foster genuine human connection to build healthy and effective teams and workplaces. She has taught at Harvard, Georgetown, and many other universities, and has been an inclusion and belonging coach for a number of companies across a diverse set of industries. Also joining us today are two panelists. First, we welcome Ruchika T. Malhotra the Author of Inclusion on Purpose and the Founder of Candour, an Inclusion Strategy Practice.

Hannah Beaver [00:03:02]:
She’s currently working on her next book titled Dismantling a Competition Mindset to Unlock Liberation, Opportunity and Peace, and that is out this year in the fall of 2025. We also welcome La’Kita Williams to the panel. La’Kita is the founder and principal strategist of CoCreate Work, a future focused coaching and consulting company that helps clients build and retain high performing teams and build human centered workplaces of the future. La’Kita teaches at the University of Washington and has also written for Harvard Business Review. As you listen, I encourage you to take what resonates, reflect on what challenges you, and consider how these insights might shape your own work moving forward. This conversation is just one of many, but each step that we take together brings us closer to meaningful change.

Hannah Beaver [00:03:58]:
Welcome everyone. We’re so glad to have you with us today.

La’Kita Williams [00:04:02]:
Thank you.

Chloé Valdary [00:04:03]:
I bet you so much for having us.

Hannah Beaver [00:04:05]:
So Ruchika and La’Kita both join us from Seattle, Chloé is joining us from New York and I’m joining from London. So that is really the beauty of a virtual conversation. I’m glad we can edit it together as Chloé is the moderator. I’ll be handing it over to Chloé now, but I’ll be back towards the end of the conversation to help out with the audience Q&A, so take it away.

Chloé Valdary [00:04:27]:
I want to start by presenting some of the sheer, the trepidation some of us, many of us on this call might be feeling. President Trump two days ago issued a broad executive order titled Ending Illegal Discrimination and Restoring Opportunity, which among other things demands that federal agents immediately cease, quote, promoting diversity, holding federal contractors and subcontractors responsible for taking affirmative action and allowing or encouraging federal contractors and subcontractors to engage in workforce balancing based on race, sex, actual preference, religion, or national origins. This is the context that we are speaking within. And I think it’s really important to enter that context as we explore some of these questions that I’ll be asking both of you. So given that context, given that field, my first question for you is what does inclusion look like to you? How do you define it? La’Kita, why don’t you take that first?

La’Kita Williams [00:05:30]:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Chloé. And thank you for setting the context because it’s something that is so important and we have been like ruminating and thinking about kind of 24 7, which is not healthy. But also it’s the reality of where we are. For us, when we think about inclusion, we like to think about it in two Parts. So we have the piece that is about the policies, processes and systems that support inclusion to make sure that people can feel included regardless of ability, background, race, gender, any sort of difference or status. Right. And so in order to make sure that happens, and one of the things we talk about a lot is working at a systems level to make sure that happens, we have to have policies, processes and procedures in place to ensure inclusion and belonging.

La’Kita Williams [00:06:22]:
The second part of that, though, is how we feel, right? Do people feel like they belong? Do they feel connected? Are my ideas heard? Am I valued in the workplace? And that sometimes is a piece that’s skipped over and often not addressed. So we like to talk about it and like, here’s the two pieces that we have to make sure is present and inclusion in order for it to be here and be possible in our workplaces.

Chloé Valdary [00:06:52]:
Beautiful. Ruchika, would you like to answer that question as well?

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:06:56]:
Yeah, I love what you said, Lita. And just to really add to that, for me, actually, I think even taking this a little bit further, what is surprising to me is I think a lot of the anti DI rhetoric to me shows me that people who are railing against it either don’t understand what these concepts mean or that they actually understand it. And there’s a lot of fear about what it entails. Right. And if we put it in plain language, you know, diversity is really looking at making sure that people from historically marginalized and underrepresented backgrounds, right. And this includes, you know, women, people of color, people with neurodiversity and disability, and, you know, kind of all measures of, again, historically underrepresented groups, that they’re present. Right. That they’re represented at the table. And then equity is really removing those barriers that.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:07:54]:
And we’ve known that there are historic barriers to ensuring that we have diverse representation, certainly in our workplaces and in societies, certainly in leadership. And then inclusion is really making sure that diverse and again, underrepresented, historically marginalized groups are represented. Do they have a chance to be able to lead? Do they have a chance to be able to be heard? Do they have a chance to really kind of have input in how things are governed and run? So if you look at sort of DEI and even specifically inclusion in those terms, it’s fairly benign. It makes sense, right? There have been people who did not have the right to vote, who did not have equal rights, who had all sorts of barriers to their progress. And we’re talking about eliminating those barriers and making sure that they’re represented and heard and are really allowed to be part of, you know, this beautiful, messy democracy and certainly in our workplaces. So for me, I really. I really hope that we, you know, move it away from, like, what do these terms mean? And a lot of sort of misunderstanding around what these terms mean. And really, simply put it in the terms of there have been people who have been left out of participation, and how do we ensure that they are very much welcomed to participate and lead just because it makes everything better?

Chloé Valdary [00:09:20]:
I want to sort of catch a thread of that, if you will. Obviously, there have been reports last year of folks in the workplace not feeling included in DEI programs. I remember reading a report that came out last year about Coca-Cola, about a consultant who gave a workshop to go through a breath work exercise, but who then encouraged participants to hold their breaths longer just so they could feel the pain that people in minority communities have felt. And that’s the sort of experiences and practices that, you know, became super popular to retweet and talk about. I’m pretty sure it’s less pervasive than folks in politics like pretend. How do you encourage open dialogue? Because we obviously want everyone to be included, and we don’t feel like. We don’t want to feel like if you’re, for example, white or male, like, you can’t participate, you can’t be a part of these diversity and inclusion initiatives. So to address that challenge, I mean.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:10:27]:
I think this is where we’re seeing a lot of. And, you know, this is why I’m working on sort of my next body of work is around this disparity that exists when you pit people and groups against each other. Right? And I think this is happening again in this anti DEI rhetoric and discourse. But for me, I think the most important thing when I have always talked about equity inclusion has been that a. I think inclusion is a core leadership trait. And I think a lot of what we recognize as what. What really inclusion really means and what we recognize as inclusion will actually, even without the word inclusion be, would be something that we would expect of our leaders. Right? And that’s empathy.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:11:12]:
That’s making sure that for any reason, if people are being left out, that they’re welcome. They feel safe to participate. Right? They feel like they can come into work and be. And again, be safe, literally be safe to be who they are. And so I think we expect that of our leaders, all measures of all sorts of ways of looking at it, whether it’s reports on empathy in leadership or whether it’s what do we expect of our leaders or what is actually missing in our workplace, which points to leaders who are empathetically are inclusive, who really look out for who’s being left out in creating a safe environment. So I think some of the concern I have and even in the sort of Coca Cola you use is this was an, this is an example. And other examples like this are examples of where you literally say like you pitch two or more groups against each other when actually again and again, when equity and inclusion are done right, when DEI work is done correctly, everyone benefits. So rather than looking at, for example, a breathwork example, I would like to think about what happens when you create, you know, processes and policies kind of like what looked said where everyone gets a chance to participate.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:12:24]:
So one example I’m thinking of is one client we worked with. We did, we worked on an intervention where we realized where a lot of the meetings were sort of run by people who were extroverts, who are really loud, who had command and control style of speaking. Right. And the meetings were really run and overrun and sort of really reward people who had that style of speaking. And when we worked with them and created an intervention with this client where actually, you know, we divided out meeting times, we made sure that people had pauses before they spoke. We made sure like leaders were equipped to facilitate meetings rather than just let people, you know, who again, kind of thought quickly on their feet and spoke loudly. And when that was sort of reset, it wasn’t just when we made meetings more inclusive. It wasn’t just people of color or women or people from actually historically marginalized backgrounds who benefited.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:13:22]:
It was actually also people who identified as straight white male who said, actually I’ve, you know, I’ve always been an introvert and I’ve never felt comfortable speaking up when, you know, when people who were wow and kind of felt comfortable holding court when that was rewarded and now that sort of media forms have become more inclusive, I feel like I can speak up. So done right, inclusion really includes and brings everyone in rather than divides and separates.

La’Kita Williams [00:13:53]:
I love the highlight there. Ruchika, about the system level response. Right. So if we look at diversity, equity and inclusion and understand it’s not a single training, it’s not a single intervention that we’re all, we’re actually looking at how is this system process operating and then how do we make it inclusive for everyone? And so for organizations who are preparing to do this work or want to do this work and want to make sure an example like you gave Chloé about Coca Cola is not happening, it’s important that we follow the same processes that we do when we’re vetting any vendor, when we’re bringing anyone in as partners and do our due diligence and also be in partnership and communication with them. So that when we’re bringing an intervention to our organization, we’re making sure that it’s going to be something that is in alignment and also taking the time to understand, like how does this organization work? What is the goals of this organization, which is the priority of almost all diversity, equity and inclusion practitioners. Like you said, Chloé, sometimes an isolated incident is found and that’s the thing that’s highlighted. But there are thousands of people doing this work where that that process wouldn’t happen. So I think it’s easy for folks to hold up one example.

La’Kita Williams [00:15:12]:
But what I would encourage people to do is to say, okay, if I need to be in partnership with someone else around bringing diversity, equity and inclusion processes to our organization, how do I actually partner with them? How do I communicate with them and make sure that we are doing things in a way where we all feel included? Because I think we all know that that’s the goal and that’s what it’s going to take for us to get the sustained change that we’re looking for.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:15:40]:
And I want to add to this, like, done right. A lot of DEI work is really under the surface because it’s things that we may not even think about. Like for example, I’m thinking of the research that shows for the vast majority of especially white Americans, from PRRI research that finds that the first time, for the majority of white Americans, first time, you really have more than a cursory interaction with someone of a different race, I. E. A person of color. It’s actually in the workplace. And that is because of, you know, decades of DEI policies and practices and legal practices to make sure that as you, as we come into our workplaces now, we are, you know, surrounded by the type of diversity that again would be hard to even imagine, you know, 50 years ago. But again, we don’t think of it that way, right?

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:16:34]:
We don’t think of that as DEI. It’s easier for DEI thought of as like a lunch and learn or like a, you know, like a one, a one off training or you know, things like that. That’s all sort of more sensationalized in the media when actually DEI is these again decades, in some cases centuries of like real under the surface work that sometimes we don’t often think about in our day-to-day.

Chloé Valdary [00:17:01]:
Yeah, we often think about it as this compartmentalized, separate Thing that we put into a box and that, as you said, gets sensationalized. But it’s actually the bedrock that makes it possible for us to engage with each other, to be in harmony with each other, and quite frankly, in the context of the United States, to fulfill the motto of the country, which is E pluribus unum. Out of many one DEI is at the forefront of making sure we. We are able to meet that challenge and meet that goal. And I also want to write out, as human beings, we have a negativity bias. We have a negativity heuristic. So it’s easy for us to identify something which is negative in the new and that becomes sensationalized. And we associate it with DEI and it’s the only thing we know about DEI.

Chloé Valdary [00:17:45]:
But precisely what you said, Ruchika. There’s so many things that are happening on the surface that are important. I want to take a step back and sort of pivot and ask a broader question. Let’s say a client comes to you and says, we want to work with you and we want to build and create immunity. What is the first step that you would each take in helping them accomplish that goal?

La’Kita Williams [00:18:07]:
Yeah, I can kick it off.

Chloé Valdary [00:18:08]:
Yeah, sure.

La’Kita Williams [00:18:10]:
So we like to bring to our work a practice from social work. I’m a social worker by training. And the. The thought there is seek to understand before we go in with any interventions, any. Anything, we have to look at the big picture and really seek to understand what is happening within the organization. Now, what’s the actual experience that people are having? We do that in a few ways. So one of the ways it is, you know, survey get that good quantitative data. Right.

La’Kita Williams [00:18:45]:
That’s often prioritized. But we like to do something called a retrospective where we gather qualitative data because what we want to do is really understand the actual experience that an individual is having that sometimes is missed in a broader data set like quantitative data. And so we bring together groups of folks and we ask them three questions. What’s working? Where are we stuck? And what might we do differently? And we say, hey, our conversation here is centered on culture, or our conversation here is centered on inclusion. And in doing that activity one, people are able to share. Here are some of the actual stories of what I’m experiencing. Besides the fact that I don’t feel included, what’s, you know, not working for me? Is that our meetings, right? Every. Everyone.

La’Kita Williams [00:19:35]:
To the example Ruchika gave, everyone who is extroverted, I feel introverted. Right. So we can really understand, okay, what’s the barrier. There’s the second thing this does is actually it empowers people. So everyone who participates in that retrospective, they go to that piece, that question of what might we do differently? And we ideate and we’re activated. So the ideas aren’t just coming from me or our team as an external person coming in with some preset solutions. It is these folks and like, what do you know? What do you think might work in the organization? And then we take that one step further and say, well, what can you do today? Which of these are. Just do it right? How do we get active? We know that when people are pursuing purpose, when people feel connected, when people feel activated, they are ready to make change, everyone is more engaged.

La’Kita Williams [00:20:29]:
And so we like to come in, to see in a. In a posture of seeking to understand, but also how can we get people involved to activate? And that’s kind of where we start from when we first start to partner.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:20:41]:
With any organization, we’re actually partnering quite closely with CoCreate Work going forward. So very similar in, in what we do. You know, my, my background is in business journalism. I love stories. And again, research shows that stories change minds, data doesn’t. And I, and I actually want to like, learn in public here where, you know, when I started this work, a lot of it was, you know, I would over index on the data. I’d be like, look at this data which shows having a woman on your board makes you have better decisions or, you know, it’s better for your shareholder return. Like, I would really, I would over index in the day, throw out all the data.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:21:20]:
I would be like, surely this will help you change your mind. You know, y’all are business. And well, in the last, I would say, at least seven years, what I’ve started realizing is actually that was very much the wrong approach because people can look at that data. Those who want to challenge it will say, oh, you know, but like correlation to the mean causation, which is correct. And then on the other hand, you would get people who would look at it, be like, oh, this is awesome. And then what do I do with this data? Like, okay, how does that make me? Definitely how I treat people or how we hire or how we pay people. And so again, for me, you know, I go back to this thing that says the shortest distance between two people is a story. Though for me, it’s really about surfacing those stories, having listening sessions where people can, you know, really openly and honestly hear and really seek to understand those different perspectives.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:22:13]:
And I think that’s a very important way to start what you start realizing again, and this is where the data side of me does come in, is actually people across different measures of diversity often don’t feel like they belong. Right. And that’s quite common. It is common to come into an organization. You could have every measure of privilege from a societal perspective and still come into the workplace and not feel like you belong. So I think, again, seeking to understand, asking the why, requesting for more information like, okay, but what could we do differently or what needs to change or what are we actually doing? Well, is a great place to start that conversation again, rather than, as La’Kita said, come in as someone external, come in with a priest. That idea. That’s not the case at all.

Chloé Valdary [00:23:03]:
I’m curious if you have encountered the challenge of a business professional who does sort of see things according to quote unquote, traditional business tricks like efficiency or profitability. How do you translate some of these more EQ centered aspects into a language that they understand? Because that’s something I’ve. I’ve been challenged by as well. So I’m curious about that.

La’Kita Williams [00:23:29]:
Yeah, I definitely, we definitely get that challenge. Even though our work, we talk about it a lot in culture, as culture, we also get the same pushback. I think. Anything to your point, Chloé, that is about. Let’s talk about communication skills. Let’s talk about EQ gets that sort of pushback. One of the things that’s really interesting to me is that a lot of organizations will really uphold a lot of data. But when we talk about the data that has to do with human beings and human behavior, not so much, right? It doesn’t get that same elevation. So one of the things that we encourage people to do is to say, look at the data. What does the data say about innovation and how innovation comes about? How does belonging and innovation correlate? Right. If we have a higher sense of belonging, then we’re going to have a higher level of innovation where organizations that are more inclusive are going to outperform organizations that aren’t. When we look at the data. So we encourage them to go into the data and look at it as it relates to these EQ items. Let’s talk about innovation.

La’Kita Williams [00:24:35]:
As a matter of fact, one of the things that I would say we discuss the most at CoCreate Work, when we talk about outcomes. Absolutely. The leaders will say, we want people to feel like they belong and we want these results. And we’ll say, all right, well, let’s talk about getting you some innovation. Let’s talk about Improving agility. Let’s talk about reducing stress. Right. And toxicity in the workplace.

La’Kita Williams [00:24:59]:
All of this relates to that. And so a lot of times when we’re able to say, you know, it’s not just one thing, how do we talk about this broader experience of the results you’re going to get? It’s what matters, right? I know back in the day, like, one of the things used to be, like, what are the soft skills? And so some we even change our language around that. We’ll say these are communication skills. It’s like, I think we’re all used to that of, like, how do we help use language to help people really understand the work and what we’re trying to do here? And so those are some of the adjustments that we try to make.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:25:36]:
And just that, like, if there’s that. And then I’ll add, the fact is, like, our country, which is extremely diverse, and your workplace get more diverse on every single measure, right? Like, already you look at the data, people living in America under the age of 18, we’re already at a place where there’s no majority race, right? Like, white is not the majority anymore. So when you think about, like, it’s undeniable, like, you are going to have these people coming into your workplace. You’re going to be hiring them, you’re going to be, you know, they’re going to be the managers and leaders of your future. So you can’t deny that data. And when you willfully push. I mean, one of the big concerns I have about what we’re seeing in, in politics, which, by the way, in my reading of it so far is really just so confusion and, you know, sort of competition and all these really negative and very chaotic sort of feelings. So that, like, there’s, you know, basically it makes media headlines and not really much else.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:26:38]:
But you cannot argue against the fact that this is what’s happening. And I’ve actually likened it to, I put this on my social media a little while ago, but I liken it to the people who were like, oh, you know, email and smartphones, like, oh, that’s never going to change the way our workplace. While people speak to email and smart incorporating it into their workplace. So it’s like, for me, it’s like these people who are extremely resistant to the reality that’s already here.

Chloé Valdary [00:27:09]:
That’s interesting. I. I do think it is sowing, unfortunately, a lot of fear. People are going to be afraid of legal repercussions and backlash. And so we’ll see how that pans out. Hopefully this will blow over. Let’s say an organization has, you know, engaged in, in a DEI that has sowed seeds of mistrust or distrust in their organization and they come to you asking for, how would you approach that? Especially given the, the context again that we’re, that we’re in right now. How would you approach that question?

La’Kita Williams [00:27:44]:
Yeah, I’ll let you kick off, Ruchika.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:27:46]:
Yeah, and, and thank you. I will say that this happens more commonly at least, and the work we do at Candor, it happens more often than not. So this is actually what we’re used to dealing with. And a lot of times again, that mistrust is sown because of poor communication. It’s like one day come in and suddenly there’s a program for women or there’s suddenly like training for, you know, what does DEI mean without any communication about how about a. How that came about be, what are, what are the sort of quote unquote problems you’re trying to solve? What are the outcomes that you’re seeking? How does this relate to the work you actually do? I, you know, wrote an article in 2020 for HBR around like as these organizations were making these commitments to racial equity. I was like, wonderful. I’m so glad to see this.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:28:43]:
It’s so overdue. And be careful that as you’re making these commitments, it’s not just coming out of like what’s happening in the news, right? It’s not just threatening, it’s reactive and oh, you know, our competitors are doing this and we should do it. It’s really about like talking about historical, historically, what’s going on, talking about what you’re trying to change, talking about what your, you know, what outcomes you’re measuring. How does that really relate to what your organization does on a daily basis, right?

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:29:16]:
Like whether it’s to profit, whether it’s to, you know, expand education, whether it’s, you know, to serve constituents of a community. I mean, I think that without that communication, that mistrust is very well founded. And I would totally, as someone who has come into organizations who has actually been called a diversity hire in my corporate life in the past, it’s very painful, right? Like to, to have that sort of accusation leveled against you. And you understand it comes from that fear based rhetoric. And it also comes from a place of like, we don’t know why this organization is doing this, so we’re just going to, you know, assume the worst and, and that that mistrust clearly gets created. So for me, I think communicating the why is really, really Important as you seek to, to build trust again.

La’Kita Williams [00:30:06]:
Yeah, I, I absolutely agree with that. And one of the things that what you said there Ruchika, made me think about is that when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion work, we see an absence of leadership. Right. In order to move this. This work is a part of leadership. It’s a part of creating a successful organization often. And Khalil, I think you said this before, maybe when we got on the call is siloed. Right.

La’Kita Williams [00:30:31]:
And so it’s look that people often put it separate. But a great leader knows that we have to any movement that we’re making in our organization, any work that we’re doing in our organization, I have to actually stand up and lead. And so what we have seen a lot of times is the abdication of leadership when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion work is definitely going to cause mistrust. And it, you know, sometimes I wonder like is that intentional, right? Or are we just allowing this thing to fail? If we truly believe in it, then every leader in the organization should be able to speak to it, should be accountable to it and know the information around it. And we just a lot of times do not see that same standard hell with regards to work that’s done for diversity, equity and inclusion. And Chloé, you mentioned one thing about legal and I know it’s not in our questions but I just wanted to add a note because I have been thinking about this too is like because it’s this pow lawn and organizations are saying we have all of this legal risk in doing diversity, equity and inclusion work. But I would also question for those folks of like what legal risk do you have in not doing the work right? How might your organization be held accountable for racism, sexism, for not holding the standards for disability in accommodation? So there is a risk and also not doing diversity, equity and inclusion work knowing like, you know, everyone here who I think is watching knows that this work is important work and it’s also legal work that is.

Chloé Valdary [00:32:07]:
Yeah.

Hannah Beaver [00:32:13]:
So why don’t we kick it off.

Hannah Beaver [00:32:15]:
With a question that we had via email from John and that a two part question, how to approach fear of government retaliation as well as backlash on social platforms for taking a certain progressive stance. And then the second part, what are maybe some actionable steps that folks can take? Would this be pre crafted replies on social media rewriting a mission statement for an organization? I know we just mentioned kind of legal plans. Is there anything around policies and legal plans? Obviously a large question but I’m curious if anyone wants to jump in there.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:32:46]:
I’m not a legal expert, and technically on these, even if you are, you shouldn’t be giving legal advice. One thing that I’ve been informed by is actually listening to a fantastic podcast by two legal scholars, Stacey Abrams and Kenji Yoshino, who, who runs the NYU center for Diversity. It’s a longer name, but the two of them were on a podcast earlier this week really talking about the legal sort of implications of some of the executive orders that we’re seeing. But from what I understand, especially, you know, and Kenji really broke it down by, like, programs that sort of are more about leveling up and really reducing bias. And in their reading, in Kenji’s sort of reading of everything that we’ve seen so far, any programs that really work on or any initiatives or any work that works on, like, removing bias in a process will never hold up to, to any legal challenge. Right? And. And like, there’s no way to do that. So that’s what he kind of defines as he was sort of leveling up and just making sure that, like, the playing field is more level and where there’s a little more questioning is the lifting up of what happens, you know, when you create a separate process for groups that have been historically marginalized to be lifted up.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:34:03]:
What, you know, sort of, that’s where there’s a little more of a legal gray area. And I found that really helpful. And that’s really the way that I’ve been talking to my clients so far, right? I’m like, we know that like any of the work we’ve done in, you know, trying to create a more level playing field. And I say reducing biases, you know, that’s really, we, you know, that work is really, really important and necessary and will continue. If we’ve been doing work more around, you know, how do we create, you know, more opportunities for people who have been left out and maybe like, like lifting up sort of opportunities where it’s again, very organization specific. So I didn’t want to make love for that. I found that informative and sort of already the way I’m thinking about it as the landscape shifts.

Chloé Valdary [00:34:49]:
Important to say that, you know, all the cultures are, generally speaking, very vulnerable. And so this is why diversity is an asset. It’s worth thinking about. How can I create a mission statement that simply reflects that truth if I’m trying to build a robust product that meets the needs of my customers? Diversity actually makes those products and services more durable and less vulnerable in times of scarcity. So that’s a little bit of the language I would offer when thinking about how to maybe recraft a mission statement for those of you who are thinking about doing right now.

La’Kita Williams [00:35:25]:
I think with leaders that tend to work with us at CoCreate Work, we’re a little bit more rebellious, I would say at times. And our thought to them is like state it plain, right? If you are standing for diversity, equity and inclusion, you are standing for belonging for everyone. You’re standing for innovation. Let’s just say it that that does a few things, right? It attracts the types of folks who want to work at an organization that is inclusive, that centers belong in, that wants to do big purpose driven work in the world that helps you to attract and bring those people in. And then no organization is without risk, right? All organizations, you would not put out a product because there might be some risk to it sometimes. And we see this with tech, right? Products that shouldn’t be out at all, right? But all of a sudden now there’s this pullback because potentially maybe something might happen with diversity, equity and inclusion. What I would say is like, let’s take a stand for what we are actually advocating for and believing in and know that in business there exists risk and a willingness to, to do that that’s more challenging for small businesses. I definitely want to name that in terms of the legal challenges.

La’Kita Williams [00:36:38]:
And so some other methods like what’s outlined at the Meltzer center might be more effective there. But if you have the ability to do that like Costco has done, right, then let’s go ahead and just take a stand and make it plain.

Hannah Beaver [00:36:54]:
Let’s go to a question from, from the chat question here from Vitor. How do you view the message of all are created equal and all lives matter in a corporate environment?

Chloé Valdary [00:37:06]:
I’m going to make an assumption. Corporation is putting out a statement of all lives matter. They are responding to something that has happened within their organization where there has been people within an organization that are promoting Black Lives Matter. And I’m, I’m assuming it is a reaction or a response to that. I’m assuming they’re not just of their own accord and of their own volition putting out that statement all lives matter. I think that leaders at the top need to put out statements that reflect the views of your entire team. And that requires a lot of strategy and a lot of communication and a lot of really going on, you know, a listening tour of what your stakeholders, especially your workers and your customers actually want and what your customers and your workers actually want, your employees actually want. Is a very itself.

Chloé Valdary [00:37:59]:
And so I’m going to just assume knowing nothing about this organization and this assumption could be totally wrong. But I’m going to assume this is probably something that happened because the leadership at the top of the company decided to make a kind of across the board statement to try to get rid of discord or conflict or strife that was happening in your organization as it pertains to this conversation on the ei. If that is the approach that they took, there will likely be backlash if they do not have the ownership, the buy in of everyone in the organization. Of course All Lives Matter that it’s completely separate from the question. Unfortunately, and I think we know this, the Fermi’s All Lives Matter has become politicized as a response against Black Lives Matter. Unfortunately that is political political context in which we live. And of course people will hear that in that and feel alienated. They will feel like they’re not represented whether the person means that or not.

Chloé Valdary [00:38:56]:
Right? So that is why it’s so important not to look at the whims of politics and see what mantras and statements are super popular and just put that as the banner right of your but really get, get serious and sincere about listening to your stakeholders, to your employees and craft that is authentic to you, not authentic to Twitter, not authentic to what’s going on. That is my response to that question.

La’Kita Williams [00:39:22]:
And I’m going to just add a period to that because everything that Chloé said.

Hannah Beaver [00:39:29]:
Why don’t we go next to a question that we had on LinkedIn? This is from Dr. McBride Wright and I think this ties into our question around creating a sense of community and how to create inclusion programs where everyone feels welcome. How can leaders create safe space for tough conversations around diversity and inclusion in the workplace?

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:39:52]:
I think again, tying it back to the why is really important. Again, when we are brought in after there’s been some loss of trust or there’s some confusion around why, you know, equity and inclusion and belonging is suddenly prioritized. And often that is the case. It’s because there’s a lack of connection to the why. It’s a lack of connection to. We’re doing this because we recognize that there have been historical biases and historical barriers. And here’s what we’re trying to do. This is the reason, this is how it ties to the work that we do, you know, in our day-to-day, whatever our sort of bottom line, whatever our mission and our vision are.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:40:34]:
So I think that’s really important. I have to say one of the things that I’ve been grappling so much with. And you know, I’ve been grappling with it well before we got to this stage where there some real challenges is this level of like one, if this group progresses, it immediately means my group isn’t progressing, right? And that comes from like this statement of things like All Lives Matter, which has really been politicized and really painfully so without the context of understanding why the Black Lives Matter movement came about. And so for me, I think I would really challenge all the folks on this call and everyone who, who really sees themselves as a leader at the organization, whether that’s by title or not, is to think about how we can reduce some of that scarcity thinking and that mindset that like we’re in competition for scarce resources, right? Like for example, as a woman and a person of color, but a non black person, for me, any organization, any work that’s being done to advance, you know, black people, especially black women, for me, I see that as a win for me as well, right? Because we all benefit when everyone feels safe and welcome and included. And so I think it’s very easy to fall into this trope of oh, if one group benefits, the other one automatically loses out, right? And so much of the work, even around DEI, and this is where I think there has been a loss in DEI work, where so much of it is around, you know, they’re only limited seats, so let’s give up the seat. Like a white person has to give up the seat so person of color takes it. Or a man has to give up the seat so that a woman takes it. Versus how do we widen the table and like increase.

Ruchika T. Malhotra [00:42:18]:
It’s not, it’s not about like giving up. It’s more about expanding.

La’Kita Williams [00:42:22]:
So Ruchik, I think you said this earlier. Diversity, equity and inclusion and building spaces of belonging. Inclusion equity is strategic work. So I would say expand your capacity and your leadership skills in order to be able to continue to do this work. So if you’re a leader in an organization, oftentimes you’re making sure that you can manage effectively, right? You can present solutions to big problems in the organization, that you can introduce new products, do that same sort of work around diversity, equity and inclusion. Expand your skillset and your leadership so you can do it at a team level. We often say at CoCreate Work, personal transformation precedes organizational transformation. And so I think this alludes to that as well.

La’Kita Williams [00:43:13]:
So do that work. And that doesn’t mean don’t move forward until you have been working on this for five years. Right? Well, get active, do the things because you have to. You gotta practice in public. But what I’ll say is a lot of times people feel uncomfortable or a lot of things can go wrong because we haven’t worked on that leadership capacity. And when, when you are a strong leader, you know, I make mistakes. And so then in doing this work and you make a mistake, you’ll be able to speak to it and address it. And that helps to reduce the fear and increases your confidence, which is something that is important for all leaders.

Hannah Beaver [00:43:49]:
I just want to say a huge thank you to all of you. This was my first panel to moderate. So for me, thank you for making it so easy to elevate your voices. And thanks so much for joining us and sharing all of your perspective on the questions today. Thank you especially to Chloé for moderating. But with that, I will wrap the conversation. And thank you so much. I’m seeing a lot of thank you coming through in the chat as well, so I can tell that our audience really appreciated the insight today. So thank you all.

Hannah Beaver [00:44:14]:
For more from all three experts, please check out the show notes for their websites, books, consulting services and contact information. For more from How To Make a Leader, make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode. We’ll be back next month and every month for another insight from another L&D leader. Thanks for listening. We’ll catch you next time as we learn how to make a leader.

How do strong leaders tackle today’s DEI challenges?

In a time of shifting policies and conflicting public discourse around DEI, consider this episode a practical guide to build inclusive teams with inclusive leaders. In this special How to Make a Leader episode, we’re sharing a virtual panel discussion with experts Chloé Valdary, Ruchika T. Malhotra, and La’Kita Williams, who bring decades of experience in inclusion, workplace culture, and leadership to tackle some of the toughest questions in DEI today.

From navigating fear-based rhetoric to rebuilding trust in organizational initiatives, this conversation cuts through the noise to focus on what truly matters: creating workplaces where everyone thrives.

You’ll learn:

• How to address fear and backlash surrounding DEI efforts
• The biggest reasons DEI initiatives succeed (or fail)
• Practical ways to build inclusion into leadership at every level
• How to foster real belonging beyond performative policies
• What leaders can do today to create lasting, meaningful change

Things to listen for:

(00:00) Introducing Chloé Valdary, Ruchika T. Malhotra, and La’Kita Williams
(05:18) What diversity and inclusion look like in the workplace
(09:29) Challenges of making DEI truly inclusive for people of all backgrounds
(12:28) The role of leadership in fostering inclusion and psychological safety
(23:13) Translating DEI into business language: Efficiency, innovation, and growth
(24:58) Common pitfalls in DEI initiatives and how to rebuild trust
(29:39) Crafting mission statements that reflect diversity as a business asset
(32:08) Audience Q&A about DEI Initiatives
(35:03) Avoiding scarcity thinking and expanding leadership opportunities
(39:45) Creating safe spaces for diversity and difficult conversations in the workplace

To learn more about our panel and their respective work, check out the links below:

• Chloé Valdary – LinkedIn Profile | Theory of Enchantment
• Ruchika T. Malhotra  – LinkedIn Profile | Inclusion on Purpose
• La’Kita Williams – LinkedIn Profile | CoCreate Work