The communication playbook: From conflict to collaboration with HBR’s Amy Gallo

Amy Gallo [00:00:00]:
I think we cannot ignore the importance of that human connection, empathy, relationships. And as a leader, I think it’s really important to have a relationship strategy alongside all the other types of strategies you need to have as well.

Hannah Beaver [00:00:17]:
You’re listening to How to Make a Leader, a leadership development podcast from Big Think+, where we take the best ideas from the biggest minds in learning and development and distill them into actionable insights. I’m your host, Hannah Beaver. Today’s guest is Amy Gallo. Amy is a workplace expert who writes and speaks about effective communication, interpersonal dynamics, gender, difficult conversations, and feedback. She is the author of the Amazon number one bestseller, “Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone (Even Difficult People)”, as well as a seasoned keynote speaker and host of the Harvard Business Review podcast, Women at Work. I’ve had the pleasure of knowing Amy for a few years now, and she is also just a wonderful human to converse with, listen to, and learn from. So I’m excited to share the gift of Amy with you all today. Well, Amy, welcome to How to Make a Leader.

Hannah Beaver [00:01:19]:
We are very excited to have you today.

Amy Gallo [00:01:22]:
It’s nice to be here, Hannah. I always love our conversations.

Hannah Beaver [00:01:25]:
I know we’ve actually, I’m very lucky. I’ve known Amy for a while now. We’ve met in person on the Big Think shoot and then we did a book club event together and now a new medium and podcast, so.

Amy Gallo [00:01:36]:
We’re covering it all.

Hannah Beaver [00:01:37]:
Exactly, exactly. So what some of our listeners may or may not know about you is that you have your own podcast called Women at Work, which is hosted on Harvard Business Review. I’m sure it’s interesting for you to be on the other side of the table being the interviewee rather than the interviewer. But to kick it off, as you are the expert in communication, I’d love to know, is there anything that you’ve learned or been surprised by about communication just through your experience hosting the podcast?

Amy Gallo [00:02:05]:
That’s a good question. I mean, I think this isn’t very surprising, but it’s so clear to me is that the more you get to know someone. So when I’m interviewing someone, I know who I’ve worked with before or even toward the end of an hour long interview, the rapport just makes the interview flow much more easily. And it’s, you know, I listen back obviously to all of our recordings just, you know, to check things before they publish and I can just tell a real difference. Sometimes you can even hear this moment where things click with me and the guest or my co host and the guest and you’re like, oh, there we go. Like we just start running there. And I think for me that really just emphasizes, I think we think of the, of communication as a skill and maybe it’s, you know, one thing that happens, but I really think of it as a relationship, right?

Amy Gallo [00:02:53]:
We are, you and I are in relation as we’re having a conversation, we are bouncing ideas off one another. I’m watching your reaction. You’re watching my reaction. It. And it’s, I think for me more and more especially as I continue to do the work that I do. I just am so invested in how do you form a relationship quickly so that people can communicate in the most clear, constructive, sort of forward motion way possible.

Hannah Beaver [00:03:25]:
I love that. And the idea that communication is also around relationship building. And I think a lot of the time we just want, when we’re in communication with someone, whether that’s in the workplace, which is most of your specialty, but also so many of the principles you talk about apply to outside of the workplace. So much of it is about making the other person feel comfortable as well. And then the more comfortable someone feels, like you mentioned, by the end of the hour you’re kind of getting a more. The conversation is flowing and people feel more open to sharing, you know, their experience or whatever that. Whatever they’re talking about. So that’s a really interesting point.

Amy Gallo [00:03:58]:
Yeah. I actually did a workshop two weeks ago with a group of physicians and this guy was asking a ton of questions during the workshop in a way that was almost challenging. And I kept thinking, oh, maybe he’s not enjoying this, maybe he’s not getting a lot of. And he hung around afterwards and he was, he was so complimentary, I was so pleased. And he said, you know, you really talk about communication as a way to connect with people, not to get what you need from them. And he said that really resonated, which is why I was asking a lot of questions. Because most of the communication training I’ve had as a physician is, is about how do I get someone to do something. And I thought that was a really interesting perspective.

Amy Gallo [00:04:40]:
And again, not a surprising take on my work, but a really helpful way of articulating what really matters to me around communication, conflict, difficult conversations is at the end of the day, it’s about the connection you make with the other person.

Hannah Beaver [00:04:57]:
I love that. Well, what a great way to start the conversation today. Well, why don’t we jump straight into it and talk about your book, “Getting Along”. And in your book you talk about the nine principles for developing healthy workplace relationships. So could you walk us through the principles that you think are the most critical, that leaders and professionals should prioritize?

Amy Gallo [00:05:20]:
There are. Let’s. I’ll focus on 3 of the 9. I could do all 9, but we’ll focus on 3 of the 9. And I think the one that I find the hardest to remember, but also the most important and really, really is. Plays an important role in. In shifting a dynamic. When I’m having trouble with someone, whether it’s just tense or we don’t see eye to eye, or I’m doing something that’s pushing their buttons, or vice versa is really the principle, which I call your perspective is just one perspective, which is based on this social psychology theory called naive realism, which is that when we see something, right, I look at you and I say, your shirt is blue.

Amy Gallo [00:06:00]:
If you tell me, no, it’s green, I think, well, Hannah’s just wrong. You know, I don’t think, oh, there’s another way to see that shirt. The color might be different in different light. Like, I just think, well, Hannah’s wrong. She’s Maybe she’s even colorblind. Like, who knows, right? It’s not. And so that’s very true when we. When we have perspectives on one another’s behavior.

Amy Gallo [00:06:20]:
So I might see your behavior as passive aggressive or pessimistic, but you’re seeing it from a completely different light. And so trying to remember that your perspective is not correct, it’s just your perspective. And the other person has an equally valid perspective on the dynamic, on the problem you’re trying to solve, on the way you treat one another, I think that really helps me partly because, similarly, if we. If you and I are in a disagreement or having a fight, and you, you know, start behaving in a way that doesn’t work for me, I decide that’s irrational. Like, Hannah’s being irrational. She’s being unreasonable. That’s not. But if I assume, well, you know, what Hannah has probably has a valid perspective on this.

Amy Gallo [00:07:08]:
Her behavior is probably rational in her mind, at least, right? Most of us don’t choose to behave irrationally. We think there’s a rationale for doing what we do. If I remember that, it puts me less in a dismissive, combative, distancing mode and more in a connecting mode. So that’s one. I would point out, your perspective is just one perspective. The second is to know your goal. You know, oftentimes my goal in a conflict or in a disagreement is just to prove that I’m right. And that, that the other person’s wrong.

Amy Gallo [00:07:43]:
You know, it’s just, it’s a natural human instinct. But that’s probably not truly what you need in this situation. You might need a stronger working relationship with this person. So proving you’re right and they’re wrong is not going to help that. You might just need this project to get done on time, right? And focusing on who’s right and who’s wrong is not going to get you there. So really try to hone in on what is it you need from this situation. Maybe short term, maybe long term. And think about how do I want to behave so that I can increase my chances of getting to that goal.

Amy Gallo [00:08:19]:
The last principle I will point out is that you should experiment to find what works. The notion of connecting conflict, human relationships are messy. And how I handle a situation with someone who’s my peer versus my boss, someone who I’ve worked with for five minutes versus someone who I’ve worked with for 5 years in different organizational cultures in different contexts, all of that is going to be dependent. I hate when people ask, well, how do you do this? Well, it depends. But when it comes to human connection, it really does depend. And so I would love to tell you, you know, there are five concrete steps you can take to make your passive aggressive coworker be more direct. But I can’t guarantee that’s going to work. So instead I want you to find some tactics that you think will work based on advice you might find in my book, advice you might find elsewhere, and then experiment, like put on a scientist mindset and think, okay, let me try this for two weeks.

Amy Gallo [00:09:24]:
Let’s see. Does it work when we’re directly looking each other in the eye? Does it work when we’re on Zoom? Does it work when there are other people in the room, but it doesn’t work when we’re just the two of us.

Hannah Beaver [00:09:39]:
As we think about kind of those difficult relationships to navigate. I’m curious what you’ve noticed, especially in today’s work environment where we’re dealing with both hybrid, fully remote and in person environments. What are some of the most challenging communication barriers that you’ve noticed? And do you maybe have an example of one or two that you’ve seen in your work?

Amy Gallo [00:09:59]:
There’s a lot that’s coming up because of this sort of changing way that we’re working, that we’re not always seeing each other. Know if you and I are sitting in the same room, I have the benefit of understanding your context, reading your body language, knowing what Maybe happened as you walked in the room, knowing who else is in the room. I just have a lot of information to piece together what you actually mean, because as humans we think we’re clear. This is back to the naive realism, right? Is that when I say something I think it’s crystal clear. And if you’re confused, I think that’s on you. But the reality is we’re not clear. We use all of the context, the non verbal body language, the clues of what’s happening in the room. So we just don’t have all of the data that we need to correctly interpret someone’s comments, behavior, et cetera.

Amy Gallo [00:10:52]:
So it’s a situation that’s ripe for misunderstanding. And that’s because we don’t have those clues, but also because these mediums we presume, and I’m talking about, you know, text, so maybe it’s Slack, but anything that you’re where you’re just communicating solely by text, email, video, we think they’re good replicas for in person communication. And they’re not. Now that doesn’t mean I’m like, everyone’s got to go back to the office. No more remote work. Hybrid works. I actually think those things are good things for a lot of other reasons. But I think we have to be aware and compensate for the fact that this is not the same as if I was sitting in the room with you.

Amy Gallo [00:11:36]:
I really encourage people who are dealing with remote colleagues who they might have a little bit of tension with is to say, my intention with this email is this or the goal of this meeting is right. Just be very clear about what you’re actually intending to do. Because we presume people understand it, but they don’t always. Similarly, and this feeds into the miscommunication is we don’t tend to have a lot of empathy when we don’t have the sort of in person connection with someone. I mean, I don’t feel, you know, when I’m this tiny little box on the screen, like I don’t feel like my full self. And I certainly am not interpreting the other people or tiny boxes on screen as their full selves, even if I know them well. So I think we’re just missing also some of that important empathy that comes along with challenging communications. And the last thing I’m seeing, and there’s not data yet or evidence on this, but it’s what I’m seeing over and over what people are asking me, especially those who work in hybrid work environments, which is there’s just a sort of avoidance of anything challenging because people know we’re going to end up in like 75 emails deep about trying to solve this thing.

Amy Gallo [00:12:48]:
That if we were in person we could just sort of talk through or stop by one another’s desks. So there’s also just this avoidance, I think that’s getting deeper and deeper about. I’m not going to raise anything too challenging. Add to that that most of us work in fast paced, high pressure environments and that it feels like even raising a conflict slows things down. And no one wants to be the person who derailed the meeting or caused another meeting to happen or is seen as obstinate or as an obstacle. So it’s not a great recipe for good communication. It’s overcomeable, but we just have to be aware of the limitations that we’re facing.

Hannah Beaver [00:13:31]:
What is your framework for navigating these difficult conversations and how would you suggest approaching and just addressing the problem initially and then leading into kind of the resolution stage of the problem?

Amy Gallo [00:13:46]:
Yeah, I mean, I think first is think about really carefully just to connect to the question around remote and hybrid work is really think about the medium. I think we think video is probably best. The problem is video actually feels very confrontational because you’re looking someone in the eye constantly, which is not how it would be if we were in person, right? You would be. We look at our hand. Right, right. But it seems very confrontational.

Amy Gallo [00:14:13]:
You’re just sitting there staring at someone and you feel sort of stuck. Think about the medium. I’m a big fan of a phone call. You know, don’t have to look someone directly in the eye. I can pick up a lot from the tone of their voice, get to the point of connecting with that person. I do have a sort of simple four step framework. I like people to go through. Um, and some of this is connected to some of the principles we talked about earlier and as well as sort of how, how to overcome some of the communication challenges.

Amy Gallo [00:14:42]:
So number one, I want you to think about the other person, what’s going on for them. Assume they’re rational, assume they have a reason for behaving the way they are now. This is generous and empathetic, but more importantly for you, it’s strategic because it’s going to put you in the right frame of mind, not feeling as combative, hopefully feeling more collaborative in trying to encourage that curiosity that makes it, makes it more likely when you do have the conversation. It’s more of a back and forth rather than a butting heads or a tug of war. So that’s step Number one. Step number two is figure out what is it you’re actually disagreeing about, what’s at stake? I think oftentimes we think, well, this is about a personality clash. Hannah and I have never gotten along. You know, she cares about one thing.

Amy Gallo [00:15:28]:
We have different values, whatever it is, but there’s usually something else going on as well. Like, do you disagree over the goal of what you’re trying to achieve, the process for how to get there? Like, really try to dig in so you can understand what are the points of disagreement so that you can raise them in turn. Third, you want to think about that goal I mentioned earlier. Like, what is it you actually want from this interaction, from the relationship? And you get bonus points here if your goal overlaps with the other person’s goal, because that’s a really good place as well to start a difficult conversation from. And then your last sort of step is to figure out, how do I actually proceed. So keeping in mind what you know about the other person, what you’re disagreeing about, what your goal is, you can then choose, okay, I’m gonna set something up with Hannah for an hour. It’s gonna be a phone call. You know, whatever it is, you can then decide or you can say, you know what, I’m gonna let it go.

Amy Gallo [00:16:26]:
Like right now, this isn’t. I don’t think this other person’s going to be ready for this conversation. Or, you know what, maybe this was a one off. Let’s wait and see how things go. You have to be careful that you’re not avoiding. But sometimes it’s the right decision to let things slide just for a little bit and just sort of reassess how things are going on. So that’s my recommendation for before you even have the conversation. Once you do sort of sit down and if you decide to have a moment where you sort of hash it out on the phone in person, whatever it is you want to also think about, how do you set that conversation up for success? I’ve seen so many disagreements.

Amy Gallo [00:17:07]:
Difficult conversations just get torpedoed in the first two minutes because people have said the wrong thing or intentionally tried to poke the other person, tried to just come out showing they were right with this know it all behavior. So I like to really set the conversation up succinctly by saying, you know, I invested in this conversation. I feel like we’re, you know, disagreeing about X, Y or Z. Or maybe, you know, sometimes I’ll even say, I think we’re disagreeing about X and Y, but I don’t think we’re disagreeing about Z. Like, just to try to make it clear we’re not completely at a loss here in this conversation. And then I like to ask them a question just to engage them, right? How do you see it? Is that how you’re seeing the disagreement too, or what am I missing here? I’m sure you have a perspective I haven’t fully understood.

Amy Gallo [00:18:02]:
What would you like me to know? Anything. To just sort of signal this is going to be a collaborative conversation. This is going to be a back and forth.

Hannah Beaver [00:18:10]:
I like the. The idea of kind of setting the intention aloud in the conversation. And that’s something that I haven’t really thought about before, but makes a lot of sense because then you really are kind of laying your cards on the table and you’re setting yourself up for success for that type of successful conversation. I was thinking while you were mentioning how sometimes, sometimes it’s worth having the difficult conversation. Sometimes it’s not always. Or maybe it’s a. I’ll remember this, but come back to it.

Hannah Beaver [00:18:38]:
I actually had a friend last week call me. She was in the office, had like a little bit of a. Not an altercation, but something with a coworker that she didn’t love. And it wasn’t the best form of communication and it was kind of, you know, beginning to. To bother her. So she went into a little call booth and called me instead and said, I just want to express that this happened. This is frustrating me. It’s happened a couple times and it will probably happen again.

Hannah Beaver [00:19:04]:
Right now, to put my emotions aside, I just want to, you know, get it off of my chest. And then maybe we can brainstorm a way that I can communicate exactly how I’m feeling when I’ve removed a little bit of the emotion and I can be more rational. I’m curious, do you see that type of thing? I know you mentioned you had a friend that called you about a communication breakdown at work. How often are you seeing that type of thing where sometimes people just need to express something to a third party in the moment and then revisit and brainstorm for a more structured conversation later?

Amy Gallo [00:19:33]:
Yeah. I mean, there’s two things. One is sometimes those four steps I outline, sometimes someone goes through them and they’re like, oh, I actually don’t care about this, right? Because now they’ve actually expressed it, they’ve gotten it off their chest, or they think, oh, this is just not a big deal, like.

Hannah Beaver [00:19:46]:
You see it unload in the moment and yeah.

Amy Gallo [00:19:50]:
Exactly, but the key is, because what Your friend did with you is vented, right? And I think venting, I used to say vent. Like I used to absolutely make sure you vent before you have this conversation. But I’ve since seen research that shows that all venting is not the same. So if you come to me and you’re like, I can’t believe this happened, I’m so upset. And I go, oh my God, you’re so right. You deserve to be angry about, right? And I work you up further.

Hannah Beaver [00:20:17]:
Yeah.

Amy Gallo [00:20:17]:
The point of venting is now lost, right? Which is. So you really want it to be sort of dissipating. Venting, someone who just listens, which sounds like you did a nice job with your friend. Or someone who is just constructive and says, well, what do you want to do, right? How do you, what steps do you want to take next? Really just try to choose the person you vent to wisely. And for some people, they don’t have. I’ve had people tell me I don’t have anyone in my life who, who’s not someone who will rile me up.

Amy Gallo [00:20:46]:
So I just write out, you know, I wish I, I just sit down and journal or I. Not in an actual email, but I’ll open a word doc and just say everything you wish you could say to that person and then delete it. I try to, to do a perspective taking exercise myself which is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, how will I feel about this in an hour? How will I feel about this tomorrow? How will I feel about this in five years? And usually in five years I’m not even going to remember this. The whole like, don’t go to bed mad. I’m like, go to bed mad. Like, nothing’s better to get rid of anger than sleep. True. You know, like you never wake up irate.

Amy Gallo [00:21:18]:
You wake up going, oh, wow, why was I so upset about that?

Hannah Beaver [00:21:27]:
Well, moving more from kind of an individual perspective to a team communication mindset. What would you say are differing communication patterns between high-performing teams and then teams that are struggling with interpersonal dynamics?

Amy Gallo [00:21:47]:
Yeah, there’s two things I would point to. One will not be surprising for anyone knows my work, which is that high-performing teams actually have disagreements. And I think that’s. It sounds sort of basic, but it’s amazing to me how many teams struggle with just voicing different opinions, debating an idea to try to come up with the best solution. There is sort of this consensus culture that we can’t, we’re not allowed to say we don’t agree. We’re not allowed to have A different opinion. We’re not allowed to push back on ideas. And you know, Patrick Lencioni, who wrote the Five Dysfunctions of Teams, calls this artificial harmony where it looks like we’re getting along but we’re actually just smiling and nodding and there’s a lot of simmering resentment underneath the surface.

Amy Gallo [00:22:36]:
So high-performing teams have disagreements. They typically have norms around how to have disagreements. Things like we’re going to focus on the problem, not the people, right? It’s not me versus another person, it’s about the problem we’re trying to solve. They might have norms like disagree, then commit, which is you’re allowed to disagree. But then once there’s a decision made, we all have to commit to following through on that. So that’s one important thing. They actually have disagreements.

Amy Gallo [00:23:05]:
And you would think as a conflict expert expert that I am brought into organizations when it’s like all out brawls. There’s actually one case where I was brought in pretty early in my, in my work around this where I was brought in because people were just sort of at, at each other’s throats. But almost 99.9% of the time I’m invited to organizations or to work with teams because they’re not disagreeing enough. And it’s something I feel passionately about that we are just getting worse and worse at this skill and we have to hone it more and more deliberately and intentionally. And as a leader I think that’s, that’s really important. The second thing I would just point out in terms of high-performing teams around communication is that the communication is happening in all directions. So the, the leader is not the spoke, right? Is not the hub rather where all the spokes lead to that they’re actually people are communicating with one another and not just updates, but actually understand one another’s work, ask one another for favors, for input, for ideas. And you’re just seeing a lot of cross communication.

Amy Gallo [00:24:15]:
And in inherent in that is sort of a lack of competition, right?

Amy Gallo [00:24:20]:
We’re not competing for the airtime with this, with the senior leader or the most powerful person in the room. But we really have a sort of collective mindset that we’re in this together and the more information I give you, the better. For this project that I’m working on, I know if I chip in on something you need help on, you’re going to do that for me later. So there’s a lot of accountability between peers, not just accountability to the leader.

Hannah Beaver [00:24:49]:
And to follow up on that, if you were leading a team, what are some actionable steps to take to encourage that collective mindset and create a team culture that is open, honest, and encourages constructive, you know, feedback, communication, disagreement, as you mentioned.

Amy Gallo [00:25:07]:
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most important things you can do as a leader is, like I said, sort of set norms. We often default, presuming people know how to behave as a team or. But there’s a zillion different ways that a team functions, and a lot of it will depend on how you behave as a leader. But a lot of it also will depend on the people involved, their prior experience, their natural tendency to engage in open discussion or not. And so you really have to start to lay those norms out. And I, you know, I work with teams. I say, just get a Google Doc if you’re the leader, put together some draft norms, have a conversation around, did these feel right? How should we edit these? What, what would we add? What should we get rid of what’s challenging for us and continue? Keep that as a live document that, you know, once a month in a team meeting, you sit down, go, how are we doing on these norms? Do they need to be revised? How do we want to change them? That’s one of the most important things. The other is as a leader.

Amy Gallo [00:26:07]:
Ron Carrucci, who is a contributor, he writes for HBR, He’s a leadership development expert. Wonderful guy. He has this term. He says managers are like, answer ATMs. Like, people come up to them and they’re like, give me an answer. And the more you can, as a leader, sometimes you have to give an answer that’s clear. But the more you can say, you know what, can you go ask Rebecca down the hall, or can you see if Keo has an answer to that? The more you can encourage that communication and endorse the expertise of the other folks on the team, right?

Amy Gallo [00:26:41]:
So Q knows a lot more than that. I about that than I do. They’re going to have an answer for you the more you sort of encourage that communication. This is especially important when people come to you with complaints or with complex, right? And instead of stepping in now, sometimes you’ll have to step in. But the first step I would take is to say, well, have you told them? Have you had a conversation? Let’s talk through what it would sound like to have that conversation. Just trying to get people to just be more open and direct with one another is going to help take some of that load off you to have all the answers, but also encourage your team to see one another as resources rather than just sort of fellow soldiers in a.

Amy Gallo [00:27:23]:
In a march. The other thing I would. The last thing I’ll say is just the more you can emphasize the importance of learning as well as execution. And this is, you know, really a lot of the work that Amy Edmondson does around psychological safety is just asking, what are we going to learn from this? Or if something goes wrong, what did we learn from this? Not just what went wrong. Who’s to blame? The more that it’s a collective endeavor to learn and experiment and incorporate what we learn, the more people are going to be willing to admit mistakes, challenge one another, give one another feedback.

Hannah Beaver [00:28:02]:
I love that too, because your first part of the answer to the question was around the team mission statement, almost where you’re refining what you want to be reflected in your team culture and how you want to interact. I think the notion of lifelong learning as well goes really nicely into that, and the two really can go hand in hand. I love that idea. That’s great.

Amy Gallo [00:28:26]:
And I think as a leader, that means also, like, if you want a culture where people have a value of lifelong learning, you have to admit that you are learning too, right? So. So don’t refuse to be the answer atm, because it also makes you look infallible. Admit when you make a mistake and not like, oh, when I was 20, I did this thing, but like last week you probably made a mistake. Talk about it. What did you learn? How did it feel, right?

Amy Gallo [00:28:52]:
Just try to normalize those sort of conversations and those, you know, confessions is too strong of a word, but those that transparency about what we’re actually experiencing as we sort of navigate the complicated work environments we all do.

Hannah Beaver [00:29:13]:
How do you define the concept of emotional regulation and how does it show up in the workplace?

Amy Gallo [00:29:19]:
Yeah, it’s something that’s been really top of mind for me for, I would say the last year or so, just because I think whether we’re talking about communication, whether we’re talking about conflict, whether we’re talking about leading a team, the ability to manage and respond to your own emotions in a way that is constructive rather than destructive or even overwhelming, I think really makes the difference between a team or just an experience. A person, individual work experience, but also a team experience that is easier to navigate and more comfortable. I think that one of the things I see what is emotional dysregulation, which is that someone, something happens, something goes wrong, there’s a big reorg, something happens in the news that’s going to affect your business and people sort of freak out or, I mean, even a small Thing like, I think about your friend who called you from the conference room and said this thing happened, right? That and she actually practiced emotional regulation, which is to say, I feel this thing, it feels really bad right now. I’m not going to react in this moment, but I need to acknowledge that emotion. And that ability to say I feel uncomfortable because of an emotion I’m having or emotional reaction I’m having, but to name it, let it sit, and then choose to decide later is such an important skill for anyone, like C-suite, frontline worker, anyone in any job. Because work can be challenging. I think we for the longest time thought work, work shouldn’t be emotional. And I’m so glad we’re getting over this idea because the idea that humans would do anything and not be emotional is just not based on science.

Amy Gallo [00:31:10]:
Like, it’s just. I’m so glad we’re finally admitting, like, we actually. It was funny. We were doing an episode of Women at Work, the podcast where someone asked a question about crying and I was just like, they basically were sort of fishing for an answer of like, isn’t this so unprofessional that my employee cries? I’m like, well, your employee’s human. Like, I don’t know anyone who doesn’t cry. Like, tears are normal, emotions are normal, but reacting to them or deciding they’re too overwhelming. And so I gotta, you know, pull the escape hatch and get out of here. Which is one of the reactions I see, I think causes so much strife for individuals, for teams, for leaders.

Amy Gallo [00:31:50]:
And I think if we could all just develop a little bit more self awareness around the emotions we’re feeling and a little bit practice a little emotional distance from our own emotions. You know, not to say we’re stuffing them. The research actually on emotional suppression is terrible. You should not be stuff stuffing your emotions. They’ll just leak out in such terrible ways and they’ll affect everyone, not just you. But to actually sort of let them sit right, like, this is information that I’m gathering. This is not a reason to like pull the plug on everything or a reason to yell or a reason to just leave the office for the day. Like, this is an emotion I’m having.

Amy Gallo [00:32:31]:
Let me sit with it and let me make a conscious choice. When I’m feeling less triggered, less ignited, less intense. Let me then make a conscious choice about what to do about this problem.

Hannah Beaver [00:32:44]:
And those are the moments that I’m a huge fan of fresh air too. When something happens where I have an emotional response, I’m just going to have a quick walk around the block or just walk to a coffee shop, just have a deep breath and return back to, you know, my resting state. And I always personally find that to be very helpful.

Amy Gallo [00:33:01]:
Say, yeah, and I think, I mean, fresh air, exercise, movement, all of that is incredible. And actually that’s all, you know, research based, evidence backed, which is even. One of my favorite ways to have a difficult conversation is to go for a walk with someone because you’re not staring each other in the eye. Your forward motion, right. The fresh air is helpful. The movement, like there’s just so much, so much movement in a positive direction that sometimes it can make the conversation so much easier than sitting across from each other at a conference room table or, you know.

Hannah Beaver [00:33:34]:
Yeah, the eye contact point that you mentioned earlier too is interesting how virtually we’re just looking people in the eye so much more. And I think, you know, the beginning of the COVID pandemic, everyone was getting Zoom fatigue because we weren’t used to looking at someone in the eye for, you know, an hour straight. It’s just not natural. And you wouldn’t necessarily do that in person. So I think, yeah, that’s such an interesting point that you make. And again, I had me thinking as well about the whole eye contact element of it all as well.

Amy Gallo [00:33:58]:
I mean, I think one of the questions this is connected to emotional regulation as well is like, how do I take the temperature down? Asking yourself that question of like, how do I soothe this? And again, not suppress, but how do I just soothe this? And whether it’s a walk. When I’m up at the Harvard Business Review office, there’s a water dispenser that to me has the perfect temperature water. And if I’m having like a stressful moment, I’m like, I’m just gonna go get some of that water. And it’s totally, it’s completely made up.

Hannah Beaver [00:34:28]:
You’re like, ah, this will bring me joy.

Amy Gallo [00:34:31]:
Exactly. And it’s just a moment to like, take a moment, taste that delicious water, you know, at the perfect temperature, and then be like, okay, actually, what do I want to do? I mean, this is something people often ask me about AI. Like, how do you feel about people using AI for some of this stuff about resolving conflicts or, or figuring out how to respond to a snarky email? And I say the same thing, like, I don’t, I don’t care who you ask. It can be your friend, it can be AI. Like the idea that you’re taking a moment to say, how should I respond? You’re already ahead of the game because you’re not just reacting. So whether you get feedback from ChatGPT about how to stay emotionally regulated in that conversation or what to say in response if someone pushes your buttons, or you get that from a book or you get it from a friend, I don’t care. But the pause itself is valuable to.

Hannah Beaver [00:35:31]:
Think about society more broadly right now too. You know, we’re living in increasingly polarized times. So how are you seeing these broader societal tensions manifest in workplace interactions? And what are some strategies that leaders can use to kind of mitigate their impact?

Amy Gallo [00:35:49]:
Yeah, I wish I had a great response. I will have a response, but I don’t have one that is fully satisfying because I think we’ve just gotten to the point, particularly in the US and I’ll speak about the US because this is where I’m based and where I’m from, is that it’s not just that we disagree. Actually the research shows that we see people who see the world differently than us in a much more negative way than we ever did. So it’s not just like you and I don’t agree on this issue or we don’t agree how to move forward with this project because it does bleed into work. But it’s now I don’t even respect you as a human because you hold that belief. Now that’s a really hard place from which to have a constructive conversation. The other piece is that some of the things we’re disagreeing about are basic human rights for people. And I think it’s really hard to say, oh, you should be open minded and respectful and have this open conversation about issues when this other person doesn’t even see your value as, as a human, doesn’t even see your humanity, right?

Amy Gallo [00:36:58]:
So I think we’re in a lot of no win situations. That said, we do know that especially people there are a lot of researchers who look at conversations around polarized issues or intractable conflicts they’ll call them. And a couple things really tend to work. And I think as a leader you want to think about how do you encourage these on your team, especially if you’re having a lot of political discussions or intense discussions that are coming up. And I think if we looked at like eight years ago, we would say, you know, oh, just ban politic talk. I just don’t think you can like politics affects the work so much of us do and I’m not sure it’s actually even gonna work to do that. But I think really trying to encourage people to see one another as Humans and even simple reminders of like, we all have values and things we care about.

Amy Gallo [00:37:52]:
Like just simple reminders like that the more we know someone and we understand their story, the more likely we are to see their perspective. And I’m not saying you have to agree with their perspective, but rather when someone says something that you are like, I do not agree with that. And just shutting it down. Ask some questions like, what made you feel like that? Do you have any personal experience with this issue? Oh, wow, I see that really differently. I’m curious how we both came to these same conclusions even though we have the same access to information. Are you willing to have a chat about it? Like anything you can do to try to, to just gain a little bit of understanding and share some of your perspective? Right? Like just saying, well, it’s the right thing to do. I may agree with that. But it’s a sure way to shame the other person.

Amy Gallo [00:38:41]:
And I think that’s the other thing we have to really watch out for in these conversations is we know from the research on shame that it does not encourage behavior change. It actually encourages us to double down. There’s something called the threat rigidity effect, which is that when we feel threatened, which is what shame does, is we feel threatened, we get more rigid in our beliefs and our actions. So the less you can shame someone for feeling the way they do, the more likely they’re going to be able to be open to any input. You have a conversation, they’ll be much more curious and you can’t guarantee that. And I think it’s always okay to just say, whew, this conversation is too intense for me right now. I need to get back to work, right?

Amy Gallo [00:39:26]:
And I think, or to say, like, I have a lot of strong feelings about this, but I don’t really feel like today’s the day for me to articulate them. Maybe we can have this conversation another time. It’s okay to set those boundaries for yourself.

Hannah Beaver [00:39:39]:
I had a follow up question that I think you just answered, but I’m curious if you have anything else to add to this. But that is around emotions and when emotions run high in a conflict. If you have any practical techniques for maintaining self control and professional composure, particularly if maybe the other party in conversation is, you know, acting less composed and you know, there’s really kind of a strong disagreement. Do you have any more practical tips there?

Amy Gallo [00:40:07]:
Yeah, I do. And this is something I think a lot about because I actually used to say, and I used to believe in actually my first book, the hbr Guide to dealing with conflict. I really was clear that I felt like those who stayed calm, cool and collected would win the day, right? Like they would. That would. They just would have the upper hand in the, in the conversation or in the disagreement. I’ve seen enough disagreements where the more emotional person sort of quote, unquote, wins the disagreement that I’m starting to rethink that. So I’m not saying you have to keep yourself completely calm and cool because I just think it’s. It’s not reasonable to be able to do that. None of all of us can. You know, I actually was working with someone I was coaching to try to deal with a really difficult colleague, and she was working on all of this emotional regulation. She was doing all of this work to just sort of stay calm. And then one time she just lost it in a meeting and just sort of yelled at him and was very. She was very upset that she had done it.

Amy Gallo [00:40:40]:
I’m starting to rethink that. So I’m not saying you have to keep yourself completely calm and cool because I just think it’s. It’s not reasonable to be able to do that. None of all of us can. You know, I actually was working with someone I was coaching to try to deal with a really difficult colleague, and she was working on all of this emotional regulation. She was doing all of this work to just sort of stay calm. And then one time she just lost it in a meeting and just sort of yelled at him and was very. She was very upset that she had done it.

Amy Gallo [00:41:08]:
But he came up to her the next day and was like, I just didn’t understand how strongly you felt until yesterday. And it was like, oh, wow. Like, her. Her intention of trying to keep things calm had made it seem like she was disengaged and not really. Didn’t really care about the things he cared about, which I’m sure was creating the tension between them. So I’m not telling you get to the point where you lose it and you yell at someone, but I think it’s okay to feel those emotions. I think the. One of the most important things, and this is something I borrow from Susan David, who wrote the book Emotional Agility, is you want a little bit of distance from the feeling.

Amy Gallo [00:41:44]:
So rather than I’m angry, which is like a really attached feeling to that anger, even something as simple as I feel angry right now, right? Acknowledging that’s a feeling. It’s a little bit. It’s one word removed from you. It’s not your identity. And it’s at this moment. You won’t feel this way all the way, all the time.

Amy Gallo [00:42:02]:
So you can say that in your head to give yourself a little bit of emotional distance. I think taking breaks is huge. Especially like, given the question is what happens when the other person is. Is really feeling intensely? You never want to be like, oh, wow, you seem really upset. You need a break, right? No, that. No one reacts well to that, but, but.

Hannah Beaver [00:42:24]:
You’ve got to calm down when you’re not calm.

Amy Gallo [00:42:25]:
No. Yes. No one in the history of calming down has ever calmed down because they were told to calm down. But you can say you know what? I need a break. Like, own it yourself. Like, oof. Like, I’m having a hard time focusing on this conversation. I’m really distracted by the intense emotions I’m feeling.

Amy Gallo [00:42:41]:
Can we come back to it later? Later? So I think taking a break, a little bit emotional distance, but then also having some self compassion. I think part of what happens when we feel negative emotions or anger, upset, if we start to feel tears come, for example, and then we go, oh, no, this is so unprofessional. I shouldn’t be feeling this. Like, it just intensifies it. So practicing self compassion of like it’s normal for people to get upset when they’re in a disagreement, right? It’s I’m feeling these feelings, I’m feeling anger, I’m feeling despair, I’m feeling frustration, whatever. I’m feeling stressed. And again, you’re not saying this out loud. This is all internal, but I think that can help soothe as well.

Amy Gallo [00:43:24]:
And talking to yourself, not as your worst critic, which is how many of us talk to ourselves, but as a friend, right? If you were sitting next to you right now and your friend was getting upset, you would probably put your hand on their hand and say, it’s okay.

Hannah Beaver [00:43:35]:
I love the idea of talking to yourself in the same way that you talk to a friend because you’re so right. Our internal dialogue can be so harsh on ourselves too. So I think just imagining you are your own friend working your way through a situation is just a very nice way to frame it and think about it. So in the spirit of how to make a leader, are there any attributes that we haven’t discussed today? I know we’ve talked a lot about communication and emotional regulation, but are there any attributes that, that you think really make a successful leader? Polarizing, you know, scenarios. Is there anything that you think in today’s environment makes a successful leader?

Amy Gallo [00:44:13]:
You know, I’m going to go back full circle to the beginning of our conversation because I do think connection is such an important component. And most, if you look up like leaderships and relationships or emotionally connected leaders, a lot of them talk about how to connect with the people you lead. I think one of the things that’s missing is that not enough leaders think about how the relationships between their team work. And, you know, they might think about like laying the groundwork for culture. They might think about how to structure a meeting. But to really think about what is your strategy around how people relate to one another on the team, I think is something we often overlook as a key leadership attribute. And again, the best leaders will connect authentically, genuinely with the people they lead, but they’ll also make space for and encourage and even get involved with when it doesn’t go right, the relationships between the people on their teams. And I think sometimes I say that I firmly believe it, and sometimes I hesitate because I’m like, oh, I don’t want leaders, like, I don’t know, matchmaking.

Amy Gallo [00:45:24]:
I don’t know, I don’t want them to, like, get too involved. And. And yet how the people relate affects how the work gets done. And I think we cannot ignore the importance of that. Human connection, empathy, relationships. And as a leader, I think it’s really important to have a relationship strategy alongside all the other types of strategies you need to have as well.

Hannah Beaver [00:45:48]:
I really love that. And I think, again, connects back to your idea around allowing emotion to show up in the workplace. We are human, and so allowing for that connectedness in the workplace like you may have connectedness with peers outside of work is just a really special and important take to think about for leaders. So I appreciate that perspective.

Amy Gallo [00:46:10]:
Of course. This has been really super fun.

Hannah Beaver [00:46:13]:
Awesome. Well, thank you again, Amy, and it’s been great talking to you today.

Amy Gallo [00:46:17]:
Yes, you as well.

Hannah Beaver [00:46:19]:
Thanks for listening. For more from Amy, check out the show notes, where we’ve linked her website, her book, and her own podcast, Women at Work, from Harvard Business Review. For more from How to Make a Leader, make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode. We’ll be back next month and every month with another L&D expert. We’ll catch you next time as we learn How to Make a Leader.

The communication playbook: From conflict to collaboration with HBR’s Amy Gallo

The communication playbook: From conflict to collaboration with HBR’s Amy Gallo

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